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牛博上的打架

swat, 你还是没说啥时候来我家吃饭。。。。
生平不抽烟,不饮酒,不喝咖啡,一杯龙井相伴,笑读五经诸史;
惟愿少鲁莽,少冲动,少说气话,三思后行为戒,淡看百事纷争。

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Oskar你说个时间吧,给我发个悄悄话就好。这一周除了周日以外都没问题。周日有个Super Bowl (SB) Party.
你是外国哪国人?
说Sorry!

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引用:
原帖由 imac 于 2007-1-29 11:55 PM 发表
我觉得相信民主的人,很实际,也很傻。

全世界根本就没有什么民主统治,原始时代就证明了玩不转的东西,还非说现代社会是靠这个玩转的。

埋头像个鸵鸟,只分析底下这群人怎么过日子,一点也不想想,这个一看 ...
这个,这个,你这段话要贴在任何一个大的论坛,右派都会用来做现成的靶子作为左愤维护专制的证据,昨天都有右派说极权了。
是不是要加上一些状语从句,用上一些虚拟语气啊?而且你把右派说得很虚心研究社会底层问题似的,可是我从来没见他们讨论过任何实际的问题,张口闭口就是哈耶克、弗里德曼、波普尔,特显得读了很多书似的,我怎么感觉他们说话都很不靠谱啊。
这年头在网上混比无间道还复杂,要不是读过IMAC同学以前的帖子,如果贴在别处的话,我怎么看都要觉得IMAC是右派派来玩左派的。
你是外国哪国人?
说Sorry!

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本来集权专制就是解决问题的根本,天底下没有不是集权专制的体系啊... faint...

维护不维护,天底下都是专制,这有什么好争论的?丫挺的吃饱了没事做,谁敢站出来说美国中部玉米农应该有资格对金融汇率政策指手画脚?神经病啊?

民主根本就是一个虚幻的东西,共产主义好歹还提了两条虽然看起来mission impossible的条件,这他妈的民主啥条件都说不清楚啊。什么才叫做民主啊?民到了什么程度才算是主了那帮人倒是说说啊?

还不要扯那个最扯谈的基础理论的基础假设“人人都是理性而且聪明的”,这都是哪跟哪啊?

好不容易中计,怎能轻易放弃。

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回头来说说美国总统选举

丫在电视里说得唾沫飞溅,互相辩论有个鸟用?要是国家治理问题能在电视上说清楚个大概,还要科学家干什么。我们这帮ph.d.读这么多年去种田啊?人比的是personality,帅不帅,猛不猛,是不是能抓住选票的心。

每年什么campaign策略,都是统计,哪些人投票最多,这些人喜欢什么,要讲什么话,梳什么头,穿什么颜色的衣服。这和选一个能干总统有屁关系?何况说话很多技巧,很多看起来的许诺到时候什么都不是很正常。他想干啥干啥,老百姓又没有评价政策的能力,又没有改变政策的权力,就只能选选心中的猛男上台。

怪不得没什么人关心,傻子才关心。真以为自己的票管用啊?看看Times揭露的数据,每年斗争激烈的州,废票都超出胜败差距十来倍。玩啥呢?统计还讲个置信区间不是?

好不容易中计,怎能轻易放弃。

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你可以说,美国中部玉米农没有资格对金融汇率政策指手画脚,但是不可以说,他没有权利去投票反对一个他不喜欢的金融汇率政策。
引用:
原帖由 imac 于 2007-1-30 07:31 PM 发表
本来集权专制就是解决问题的根本,天底下没有不是集权专制的体系啊... faint...

维护不维护,天底下都是专制,这有什么好争论的?丫挺的吃饱了没事做,谁敢站出来说美国中部玉米农应该有资格对金融汇率政策指手 ...
你是外国哪国人?
说Sorry!

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引用:
原帖由 imac 于 2007-1-30 07:31 PM 发表
本来集权专制就是解决问题的根本,天底下没有不是集权专制的体系啊... faint...

这句话和右派说他们确立了“自由民主平等法制”一样绝对,他们是拜民主教,你这是拜专制教。

维护不维护,天底下都是专制,这有什么好争论的?丫挺的吃饱了没事做,谁敢站出来说美国中部玉米农应该有资格对金融汇率政策指手画脚?神经病啊?

第一句话同意,无论是check and balance还是people democratic dictorship,只要是阶级社会就有压迫和被压迫.

民主根本就是一个虚幻的东西,共产主义好歹还提了两条虽然看起来mission impossible的条件,这他妈的民主啥条件都说不清楚啊。什么才叫做民主啊?民到了什么程度才算是主了那帮人倒是说说啊?

恩格斯有一句话驳斥你:
According to the materialist conception of history, the ultimate determining element in history is the production and reproduction of real life. More than this, neither Marx nor I have ever asserted. If, therefore, somebody twists this into saying that the economic element is the only determing one, he transforms that proposition into a meaningless, abstract, senseless phrase. The economic situation is the basis, but the various elements of the superstructure--political forms of the class struggle and its consequences, constitutions established by the victorious class after a successful battle, etc.--juridical forms--and even the reflexes of all these struggles in the brains of the participants: political, legal, philosophical theories, religious ideas and their further development into systems of dogmas--also exercise their influence upon the course of the historical struggles and in many cases preponderate in determining their form.
共产主义和民主没有仇,甚至和资本主义制度也没有仇.马克思主义无论是在理论还是实践上已经被严重歪曲了.如果无数的马克思主义者只是为了继续维持某一个阶级的专制,太难以理解为什么会有那么多理想主义者投身革命了.

还不要扯那个最扯谈的基础理论的基础假设“人人都是理性而且聪明的”,这都是哪跟哪啊?

右派的这个假设比较傻(29个字母第二个)
你是外国哪国人?
说Sorry!

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我认为他应当没有权利。除非你假设人人对自己行为负责任,不投不负责任的票。

无法防止有“经济学家”出来编故事,歪曲事实吸引玉米农。

这也是我为什么一直强调民主只能监督程序公正,而不能去直接监督程序行为。

落到实处,老百姓只能挑一些(用随机的方法保证有效性或者用zero knowledge proof方式测验)代理去监督这个金融。也就是老百姓应该负责监督第三方委员会的形成,这个委员会的匿名性,权威性etc,而他们并无法控制这个委员会的有效性。
引用:
原帖由 swat 于 2007-1-30 09:06 PM 发表
你可以说,美国中部玉米农没有资格对金融汇率政策指手画脚,但是不可以说,他没有权利去投票反对一个他不喜欢的金融汇率政策。


好不容易中计,怎能轻易放弃。

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你误解了,我只是说,共产主义好歹还有个实现标准对吧“物质财富极大丰富”“人们以劳动为第一需要”。这民主有啥标准?啥样叫做民主了?总不能说人追求的是一个相对概念把。

如果民主是渐进的,相对的,那这可就玄乎了。就得证明无论任何情况下,民主多都比民主少好,而这个是非常容易举出反例的。

不仅渐进式民主说不过去,光说一个终极理想情况“大家都能得到充分的信息”“所有人都足够聪明和理性”“每个人都为自己的个人利益而计算”,就这还有一个囚徒困境呢。

所以那些推行民主的人,叫嚣民主的人,先得搞清楚民主是什么。如果高人总是少数,高明的意见总是大多数想不出来的,那一民主还得了,完蛋了。

正因为民主如此复杂,自相矛盾,所以我看到的很多宣传民主的人,都是被“民主就是老百姓有更多权力”而诱惑。民主能给屁的个权力,资本主义有钱就是有权,让老百姓富裕是让老百姓有更多权力的本质渠道,这件事情执政的肯干吗?呵呵。要知道活期存款短期购买力上升就是央行失职,通胀率重要性高于失业率。
引用:
原帖由 swat 于 2007-1-30 09:30 PM 发表\
恩格斯有一句话驳斥你:
According to the materialist conception of history, the ultimate determining element in history is the production and reproduction of real life. More than this, neither Marx nor I have ever asserted. If, therefore, somebody twists this into saying that the economic element is the only determing one, he transforms that proposition into a meaningless, abstract, senseless phrase. The economic situation is the basis, but the various elements of the superstructure--political forms of the class struggle and its consequences, constitutions established by the victorious class after a successful battle, etc.--juridical forms--and even the reflexes of all these struggles in the brains of the participants: political, legal, philosophical theories, religious ideas and their further development into systems of dogmas--also exercise their influence upon the course of the historical struggles and in many cases preponderate in determining their form.
共产主义和民主没有仇,甚至和资本主义制度也没有仇.马克思主义无论是在理论还是实践上已经被严重歪曲了.如果无数的马克思主义者只是为了继续维持某一个阶级的专制,太难以理解为什么会有那么多理想主义者投身革命了.


好不容易中计,怎能轻易放弃。

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IMAC, we are here in the United States to observe, to understand American democracy, not to judge it. I think American people are serious and sincere about democracy and freedom, although they know this system is not perfect. I would prefer not say they are just hypercritical.
Democracy makes the masses feel good, even powerful. This reason is enough. It's like weeds. Once you get used to it, you will not need anything else. You tell people efficiency is also imporatant, people will go "hell no, i know it's good, but I like being poor as long as others are also poor!!!" Sometimes if you really believe in one thing (like religion), anything, sooner or later, all your belief system will be reorientated according to this faith. And you will feel good, even powerful.
The best thing about this system is the sense of security. You get due process if you are charged with crime accusation. Yes, OJ Simpson can take advantage of it so what? No many people have been executed for the crime they never committed. And a retarded student can get in a regular school rather than being institutionalized into a special school. Yes, you can argue it's not efficent educational system, but American people like this idea and they fighted for it for decades. And a ESL elementary student can get an interpreter in his/her classroom. Yes, too expensive ha? but from the long run, these disadvantaged groups can better take part in American society, both politically and economically.
With all that said, I have to make it clear: I do admire American democracy, but I don't think we should copy it to China right now. And I still think a strong domestic democracy has to be based on a certain kind of oversea slavery (globalization). The weakness of lacking efficiency in a democracy can be made up by exploiting other nations as long as you make the rules for international society and has a very visible military existence all around the world. Most of us admire the freedom and wealth American people are enjoying, at same time, criticize its aggressive foreign policy.
Can China make it? Definitely not. The first priority for CCP is still to buy a little time, to survive. So what you said is pretty reasonable. However, with time going, China should improve its human right situation and empower people with more freedom. To do it, the first thing is China has to be an independent power in international society and not at beck and call of another super power. The sovereign is important. For me, I would like to see people are comfortable with programs like SNL and South Park. When I walk on the street, no legal enforcement officials can beat or arrest me. When I buy a house, I don't need to fear one day some powerful real estate company taking my property at their will. I want to be safe. That's it.
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说Sorry!

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